CURRENT STORY DISCUSSION

She figures that Ellie was to be blamed for her death because she refused Sadako's advances; therefore, making her an easy target to manipulate. She didn't get a chance to see the male very well and placed most of her blame on the female that resisted her advances. If the real murderer is still alive, I won't be surprised he's currently hanging around in his dream box waiting for the ruler of Nod to come punish him in anyway possible (considering he wasn't caught or committed suicide after what transpired).

Either way, I am eager to find out what will happen next.

I think calling the guy a "murderer" is a little extreme.
Again, I seriously doubt either wanted her to die.

Sadako just couldn't take a clue.

Lady Fury wrote:She figures that Ellie was to be blamed for her death because she refused Sadako's advances; therefore, making her an easy target to manipulate. She didn't get a chance to see the male very well and placed most of her blame on the female that resisted her advances. If the real murderer is still alive, I won't be surprised he's currently hanging around in his dream box waiting for the ruler of Nod to come punish him in anyway possible (considering he wasn't caught or committed suicide after what transpired).

Either way, I am eager to find out what will happen next.

I don't think this is about revenge in any way. Sadako never had the chance to know love, and seems emotionally stunted. With her great power comes the temptation to use it for personal gain, and without any sense of maturity, she uses it very poorly. After all, making your teen crush love you is a dream come true (pardon the pun) for any teenager.

I don't think she realizes what she's doing to Ellie, just as she didn't realize how wrong it waas to trick Lia into a false life with George. I don't think she's really insane, but giving someone like that power at this level is like putting a submachine gun into the hands of a toddler.

Someone's going to get hurt...

Aah, Sadako, you failed to grow up so fast...

Roses Ablaze wrote:

Ana wrote:I think a couple of real world time months of this are actually well deserved.

[snip]

But hell if Ellie doesn't freaking deserve this. Murdering (passive homicide is more the correct term, but) a girl whose only crime was having a childish crush on her? Not cool.

I have to say, this post is uncomfortably close to victim-blaming. The current pages have elements of mind rape in them. :/

Agreed. No one deserves to have someone in their head, forcing them to kiss them, etc. And it is force, or else Ellie wouldn't have to be all swirly-eyed, or else Sadako wouldn't be giving Ellie her 196th "chance" to change her mind.

Aaaand now we have actual rape.

I was already being unbelievably sad and creeped out by these pages but then I noticed two things:
for some reason, in the last panel of the first page, Sadako kind of resembles Frank N. Furter to me (which, for some reason I can totally see working given it's Frankie)

Also, her "I don't want to hear this" pose is cute. Doesn't make up for the fact that she drove Ellie to kill herself or die in some fashion but still

I can't remember if I've posted before, but I absolutely looooove this comic and I recently began to hate weekends. lol. My fiance got so mad at me, because when I was told about this comic, I spent day and night catching up on it (this was about 2 weeks ago, I think). Then I found the forum and realized that I had mostly the same reactions to it as all you lovely people did. My biggest disappointment with the comic was the fact that Jake wasn't a real person, actually. I felt so bad for Don .

Anyhow, I would post my opinion on the various theories, but as of right now, I can't remember the theories or my opinions except one. That one seems to be answered, but I always wait to see if there is a curve ball lol.

I can't wait to see why Himitsu was away while the King got Sadako to kill him. That and the cliff hanger with the Harpies is killing me.

Yanno, I vaguely think at this point that I could be happy no matter what the ending is if Clandy and Don had happy endings (Clandy getting one is unlikely if current ideas are true, obviously but still) but Don getting one I have strong hopes for since he can narrate several chapters.

I also sorta want No Face to have a horrible ending but that'd just be an added bonus.

freakingdork wrote:

Roses Ablaze wrote:
I have to say, this post is uncomfortably close to victim-blaming. The current pages have elements of mind rape in them. :/

Agreed. No one deserves to have someone in their head, forcing them to kiss them, etc. And it is force, or else Ellie wouldn't have to be all swirly-eyed, or else Sadako wouldn't be giving Ellie her 196th "chance" to change her mind.

Oh, I didn't mean that Sadako would in any way be justified in doing this. She's being a total psycho, and I did say that. It's just that I can't let go of the fact that Ellie and the man left her there to rot. I'm not judging Sadako post-kingdom takeover because... her mind got just too twisted for any kind of judgement not to segfault right away. I am saying 'Ellie deserves it' in the same sense I would if some sort of Diabolus Ex Machina came in to punish her.

And yes, denying urgent medical assistance to anyone in a life threatening situation is passive homicide.

P.S. - And I wasn't saying she doesn't know now that Ellie isn't answering out of free will (how dumb would I have to be to assume such a thing? X_x). I was saying she didn't know it before she died.

P.S. 2 - On the whole 'being the devil's advocate' thing... if I had to actually be her lawyer, I'd plead insanity ever since she took over Nod.

P.S. 3 - And I'm definitely not saying Ellie deserved to be driven to suicide over this. Only that she deserved to be haunted by it for a while, not forever. Again, I'm talking Laser Guided Karma retribution here.

P.S. 4 - And I'm DEFINITELY ABSOLUTELY NOT saying Ellie deserved to get raped in her dreams. Gosh, I'm glad I can keep enough emotional distance to just enjoy the awesome character development, and just how creepy and screwed up Sadako can get.

[double post]
Oooh, the 'I banish you' speech. I was wondering how long until this came. Any doubts that Himitsu is Clandy are absolutely and completely gone.
[/double post]

It's all in the intent, isn't it? I find myself much more forgiving of Lia (mass murder) than Sadako (assisted suicide, dream-kidnapping and mild (RL) stalking).

Sporadic wrote:It's all in the intent, isn't it? I find myself much more forgiving of Lia (mass murder) than Sadako (assisted suicide, dream-kidnapping and mild (RL) stalking).

Again talking about Sadako pre-nod takeover (it's needless to comment on the trainwreck that came afterwards), it is the IRL stalking the part I put my doubts on. Granted, she was dumb as a rock when it came to realize Ellie's non-existent feelings, but what did she do that was that bad, from what we see portrayed in the comic? Plus, extreme shyness before invading Ellie's dreamscape kept her from going further even more... the only really out of left field episode was the one that granted her death.

Ana wrote:[double post]
Oooh, the 'I banish you' speech. I was wondering how long until this came. Any doubts that Himitsu is Clandy are absolutely and completely gone.
[/double post]

Himitsu is Japanese for "secret," i.e. Clandestine.

The scene in which Sadako kills the King reminds me of a folk tale about a ferryman who was doomed to perform his job eternally, unless he could give his oar to his next passenger and jump out of the boat. Perhaps Sadako should have thought twice about a job whose occupant was so eager to retire from that he would die to do it.

The story is fascinating, more like a fantasy/mystery than anything else--perhaps it could be made into a novel. It seems to contain many elements that are common in folklore and mythology, e.g. each person having a light side (the consciences) and a dark side as portrayed in "The Dark Crystal," Ursula le Guin's "A Wizard of Earthsea," and a Star Trek episode in which Captain Kirk's dark side ran amok while his good side became helpless and indecisive. Both need each other to survive and function properly (the yin and yang concept) but bad things (Skeksis, gebbeths, and in this case the Terrible Mara) happen when they get out of balance.

Based on the above examples, I predict that this story's resolution will involve the reunification of Himitsu/Clandestine and Sadako to create a "balanced" individual and a good ruler.

Thanks for clearing up the kimono thing, I must have missed the posts about the cover, and everyone saying there are 2 different ways to fold the thing. I love Japan, and Japanese things, but I'm not as well versed as I would like.

Agreed that Sadako's I'm not listening face is freakin adorable!

OMG, so you all were right all along, I was holding out to see if Himitsu was actually Clandy or not haha.

AND finally, geez talk about a guilty conscience! Had to say it sorry!

I think my favorite character of all characters in this comic must be Clandy i feel bad for her, even though she wasnt very good in her job. Well, or was she?
Maybe Sadako was just a hard girl to talk into things. She has such a strong will.
Sadako is going insane without her

Pahana wrote:I think my favorite character of all characters in this comic must be Clandy i feel bad for her, even though she wasnt very good in her job. Well, or was she?
Maybe Sadako was just a hard girl to talk into things. She has such a strong will.
Sadako is going insane without her

Well, Clandy wasn't exactly perfect at doing her conscience thing, but on the other hand her intentions were good and Sadako chose not to listen. She's being a really bad case of immature rebel all along.
And agreed. I love Clandy; she seems like this typical sweet, innocent, motherly-type simple girl to me. Hurting her in any way is like... like... like kicking the biggest puppy in the whole galaxy! *

*I just HAD to put a Pratchett reference...

Ana wrote:..but what did she do that was that bad, from what we see portrayed in the comic?

Psychologically speaking, we could go around and around saying that neither of them did anything wrong. Actually, Ellie's reaction, to simply run away from a horrible circumstance that you didn't even want ( and, honestly, you didn't cause ) is human in nature. Passive or no, if we're going to justify actions, then I still say that Ellie was only acting normally. Especially for a teenager who didn't know any better.

Again, this was just a normal little girl back in a certain time period who was just acting like anybody else would have in that situation. There were ways she could have handled the situation better, but we shouldn't expect that out of her ( any more than a court would, being that she's still a minor ). She didn't deserve any punishment. At all.

However, speaking out of the norm, Sadako was the one who acted the least normal, insomuch that she was doing things that were wrong that weren't normal human reaction. Most people would have seen that Ellie wasn't interested, especially after the "screaming at a random passerby to save her" incident. But Sadako just kept ignoring everybody and everyone's advice and just kept pushing. She ignored the advice of who, at the time, was her best friend and the only person who cared. She ignored the advice of a man who, at least once, tried being polite and telling her that Ellie wasn't interested. And even before that, she forces Ellie to kiss her.

The point I'm trying to get at here is that Ellie doesn't deserve any punishment, Sadako definitely does. Ellie didn't do anything wrong, Sadako did.

I'll drop the discussion about Sadako's character for a short while and ask about the comic: Ellie did brick her own wall inside her own dream. Is she stuck alone in her own dreamspace – if this happened, then Sadako could break the wall after shed died and torment her... right? Or does it mean that she can't ever go back to Nod and died due to lack of sleep?

Ana wrote:And yes, denying urgent medical assistance to anyone in a life threatening situation is passive homicide.

I never said it wasn't - I picked out those specific quotes because they were both examples of victim-blaming.

But technically, it would be close to involuntary (negligent) manslaughter - Ellie didn't get help, but she didn't push Sadako either - EXCEPT negligent manslaughter is only found when people have a duty to assist:

legaldictionary.thefreedictionary.com wrote:Since the law does not recognize that an ordinary person has a duty to aid or rescue another in distress, an ensuing death from failure to act would not be manslaughter. On the other hand, an omission in which one has a duty, such as the failure of a lifeguard to attempt to save a drowning person, might constitute the offense.

I do agree that all people should attempt to get medical help for someone in distress, regardless of whether or not they have a duty, but please recognize that she was not under any obligation to do so.

Ana wrote:P.S. 3 - And I'm definitely not saying Ellie deserved to be driven to suicide over this. Only that she deserved to be haunted by it for a while, not forever. Again, I'm talking Laser Guided Karma retribution here.

P.S. 4 - And I'm DEFINITELY ABSOLUTELY NOT saying Ellie deserved to get raped in her dreams.

Except that's NOT what was happening. Sadako was making Ellie do things against her will, of a sexual nature and otherwise, and thus saying she "I think a couple of real world time months of this are actually well deserved." and "But hell if Ellie doesn't freaking deserve this." do indeed refer to the mind rape that she was experiencing and not "being haunted". I understand that was probably not your intent, but it did appear to be, which is why people have said things regarding it.

Megabyte wrote:Ellie did brick her own wall inside her own dream. Is she stuck alone in her own dreamspace – if this happened, then Sadako could break the wall after shed died and torment her... right? Or does it mean that she can't ever go back to Nod and died due to lack of sleep?

No, I'm pretty sure Ellie committed suicide.

Reasons:
1) Dreamers seem to be unable to get out of their own dreamspace unless they are shown the door that leads to Nod. Fi got told about the door by Mary; Lia was shown the door by Sadako.
2) Bricks outside the door represented death in Lia's case. While she put them up herself, it is likely that the bricks are put up whenever anyone dies and they're not necessarily put up by the person themselves.
3) The statement "Until one day, Ellie could take it no longer" is similar to things said in suicide notes or about people who have committed suicide. It's kind of a euphemism - something kind of "flowery" rather than being direct.

freakingdork wrote:
1) Dreamers seem to be unable to get out of their own dreamspace unless they are shown the door that leads to Nod. Fi got told about the door by Mary; Lia was shown the door by Sadako.
2) Bricks outside the door represented death in Lia's case. While she put them up herself, it is likely that the bricks are put up whenever anyone dies and they're not necessarily put up by the person themselves.
3) The statement "Until one day, Ellie could take it no longer" is similar to things said in suicide notes or about people who have committed suicide. It's kind of a euphemism - something kind of "flowery" rather than being direct.

All correct, especially #2.

The last we see of Ellie in the real world is her and the mysterious man running away. He says "Let's go."

Let's go... where? Maybe Ellie went to get help? Maybe she went to tell someone? But when they came back, it was too late? I think that at this point, it might be kind of harsh to assume that Ellie just decided not to say anything, not to do anything, and just let Sadako die. It might be the case. It might. But who knows where she ran off to? She certainly feels guilty about it later in her dreams, maybe she genuinely tried to get help but it was too late? After all, Sadako plunged almost immediately into the dream world, and became its ruler in short order. She could have died long before any help was brought to her.

It's also obvious that whoever the man with Ellie was (her father? A male teacher? A family friend?) has some influence on her. Maybe he convinced her to not tell anyone, if that's the case.

At the very least, I don't see Ellie having any guilt here. She didn't push Sadako. She was rightly horrified when it happened. She fled at the command of her male companion... if she didn't tell, I feel that there must have been strong reasons for it. Maybe he blackmailed her. The fact that she's so broken up over it shows that it did affect her deeply; I don't imagine she just went home and had a cookie. I don't really see how we can pin any guilt on her; I don't think her negligence caused the death of Sadako. She either tried to get help (we don't know where she went!) and it was too late, or was hushed up by the man. Either way, it ate her up inside even without Sadako mind-raping her on a nightly basis. Certainly she felt bad enough about it to kill herself.

I think she was blameless in this whole thing, from the start. And I feel really, really bad for her.

Megan Rose wrote:

freakingdork wrote:
1) Dreamers seem to be unable to get out of their own dreamspace unless they are shown the door that leads to Nod. Fi got told about the door by Mary; Lia was shown the door by Sadako.
2) Bricks outside the door represented death in Lia's case. While she put them up herself, it is likely that the bricks are put up whenever anyone dies and they're not necessarily put up by the person themselves.
3) The statement "Until one day, Ellie could take it no longer" is similar to things said in suicide notes or about people who have committed suicide. It's kind of a euphemism - something kind of "flowery" rather than being direct.

All correct, especially #2.

Megan, then she's dead, forever stuck in the dreamworld and being prone to be harassed by Sadako (all Sadako would need to do is to break the wall)... is that right?

Megabyte wrote:Megan, then she's dead, forever stuck in the dreamworld and being prone to be harassed by Sadako (all Sadako would need to do is to break the wall)... is that right?

I would not quote me on it, but I am presuming that she killed herself to escape dreams. I mean, unless you die in the Dreamworld you do not stay in it... Otherwise we would have countless dead people floating around in the Dreamworld. And it is unusual, is it not, that Fiona and Lia are in the Dreamworld. So I think that Ellie escaped from the Dreamworld by killing herself, in a sense, rather than trapping herself in there.

Poor girl, I feel awful for her :/

I thought you were only stuck in Nod if you died while you were there?