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So is Lia a bad person?

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1So is Lia a bad person? Empty So is Lia a bad person? Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:10 am

Xshu



I just stopped to consider the following:

Sadako — Banished her conscience and became more or less an omnipotent sociopath. She thinks only of herself and doesn't feel bad for acting on any of her desires. Her desires consist largely of falling in love, generally dominating the world, and finding someone to kill her.

Lia — Lost her conscience and became more or less an omnipotent sociopath. She thinks only of herself and doesn't feel bad for acting on any of her desires. Her desires consist largely of killing everyone in the world.

Why is Sadako still a relatively normal (if cruel and selfish) person with her conscience gone while Lia is ax crazy? Sadako lost her conscience and was still able to think "I like this girl so I will pretend to be her lover because seeing her happy makes me happy". Lia descended pretty quickly into "I like this girl but she's disagreeing with me and I have no concept of the long-term consequences of my actions so STAB!"

Even if she has some deeper reason for attacking Fiona, though, that doesn't explain her massive centuries-long killing spree.

I mean, it has happened that I've thought "I wish this person wasn't bugging me" and then I feel mild guilt over the fantasy of pushing the annoyance off of a bridge. There's a conscience in action. I don't think guilt and a lack of power has ever been the only thing keeping me from thinking "you know what I could really get into? Genocide."

It seems like Lia really is the kind of person who actually wants to murder people for fun, and her conscience is the only thing stopping her. "I would have fun killing everyone" is probably not the default thought process for a person just because they no longer feel bad about things.

Frankly, while I do want a happy ending for Fiona and Lia, I can't fault Fiona's logic.

2So is Lia a bad person? Empty Re: So is Lia a bad person? Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:43 am

after all

after all

Not sure if Megan intended this interpretation or not, but when you look at Lia as a victim of rape and abuse that was denied closure (and didn't feel bad about taking back control of things any way she could) her actions start to make a lot more sense.

tl;dr version: I think Lia wanted to kill Sadako after what happened, but she was also really afraid of Sadako so she couldn't bring herself to go back and seek some sort of justice. But at the same time, the pain of 50+ years of abuse (found out about in one moment) wasn't going away. She wanted to lash out, and there was nothing making her feel like taking her anger out on other people was wrong. When she hurt people, it made her feel better-- she felt powerless after what Sadako had done to her, and hurting people gave her a sense of having some control again-- so she kept doing it and doing it. I think killing just sort of became her coping mechanism, and she did it whenever she felt bad, and then she did it to not feel bad, and then she didn't really know why she was doing it, but she didn't know what else to do with herself.

Maybe Sadako's "recovering alcoholic" metaphor was more accurate than we thought. Maybe Lia became addicted to being the Mara, or at least the sense of power that came with it. And as for the Fiona-stabbing... I really don't know why she did that, but perhaps she was still really pissed at Sadako, even worse now, and instead of Lia getting to get her revenge, Sadako was mercy-killed by Fiona, and Lia didn't feel better at all. Or maybe Fiona telling her to calm down and check her impulses felt like Fiona was taking away her only way to deal with all of this.

So I agree with you that Lia isn't mentally healthy enough to be a good partner for Fiona, but I do think she's a good person inside. She's just angry, and when she doesn't have her conscience around, she has no idea how to deal with those feelings without hurting other people. If she gets her conscience back for good and deals with her issues and moves on, then I think eventually she and Fiona could make a good couple once they both figure out what they want... I just think she's not there yet.

3So is Lia a bad person? Empty WHAT ABOUT CONSCIENCE!? Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:33 pm

Leeskra



The Real Question....

WHERE IN THE FARCE HAS LIA'S DANG CONSCIENCE BEEN ALL THIS BLOODY TIME!?

And WHY would Sadoko not give it to her in her Terrible Lia thingy days to end the murder of her people if she had her captured, like it seems?

How come Fiona's conscience seems like its on steroids with its willpower compared the wall lilly that is Lia's... >_<

-btw, this is my first post. I really do love this series, sorry if I seem overly critical.-

4So is Lia a bad person? Empty Re: So is Lia a bad person? Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:17 pm

after all

after all

I'm not sure anyone KNEW Mara was Lia. Especially not Sadako. Sadako probably wouldn't know that stealing Lia's conscience would make her into a violent serial killer (especially when losing her own conscience made her just feel less guilty about the stuff she'd already do) and since she wanted Mara to kill her, she would never knowingly allow a situation where Mara could get a conscience and suddenly not be okay with killing. If she had any idea that Mara was Lia, she would have made sure that Mara wasn't allowed anywhere near Lia's conscience.

I'm assuming that Lia's conscience is either a) locked up by Sadako somewhere really, really secure that Fiona hasn't found yet, b) locked up by Sadako but then found by Fiona, and currently part of the rescue operation, or c) the person Lia was forced to kill that turned her into the Mara again.

5So is Lia a bad person? Empty Re: So is Lia a bad person? Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:12 am

Moony

Moony

Well, I think it's really just a matter of everyone's different. How we deal with our consciences and than lack there of, of one is something that is a little case by case.


tl;dr:

Sadako was to begin with an unruly and selfish individual, she generally acted on impulse and only stopped when there was a chance she would not get her way or she would get in trouble ( very childish ). I know when she was alive she was very much a fish out of water in her situation and yet still extremely strong-willed, that did not stop her from 'misbehaving'. ( Going into people's dreams? Manipulating Ellie? Sound familiar...? ) Even when Sadako's conscience would consistently try to guide her from doing-no-wrong, Sadako ( even when she was made aware of her) didn't really listen to Himistu/Clandy often. The point I was making with Sadako is that: Even if a person has a conscience that doesn't mean that they will always listen to them.

On another subject: I suppose Sadako, even when she became an omnipotent sociopath, still retained the ability to reason and not think in a egocentric manner all the time after she willingly dismissed her conscience... Because sometimes even when we know something is wrong, people still want to do it and if that person is strong willed and selfish enough they will still go through with their intentions. Sociopaths even though they don't really feel sentiment or feelings towards other people still have the ability to reason and create order.

From what I've observed, Clandy/Himistu was trying to be a figure in Sadako's life she was missing. If not for strict parenting and less-than-glorious decisions made on behalf of Sadako by her father she might not have been the person we knew today. If she had a constant parental figure and/or someone who understood her language wise ( aside from her father ), she could have had someone she could have related to and spoken with in the Real World. Sadako's actions were guided by loneliness and the desire for acceptance she had goals.

On the other hand - Lia had things Sadako didn't, she had both her mother and father who she seemed to be on good terms with, though she was ostracized for being Italian she didn't have the problem of a language barrier. Though lonely, alot of Lia's actions and things she did were fueled by the same reasons as Sadako; Loneliness, acceptance, and love. But - She wasn't very selfish and still didn't act on her impluses as frequently. For example, when she asked her mother for some bleach to do her hair and her mother said no, she could have tried to get it herself or in a way that may have gotten her mother fired ( if she had taken it from her mother's job. ) Seeing as she was a bit of a drama-queen ( her reaction ), I can relate to that feeling of not fitting in. With Lia, she was - Hmm... How can I say it? When she had her 'makeover' a whole new world of possibilities and chances were given to her. She made friends and she found love, something she didn't have for a very long time.

After George died, grief and mourning can make people desperate - and Sadako manipulated Lia into 'dream-suicide' to achieve her own means. Once Lia had realized the 'relationship' she was having with Dream!George/Sadako was a lie ( which evidently, her relationship with Real!George was also based on a lie if you think about it) came into focus - All of the things she had accomplished and sacrificed in the name of love was actually in vain. If that was me, I'd be pretty angry too... And once her conscience was no longer there to console her or be her voice of reason, it's understandable to be that angry and lash out that horribly. People do that, that's at least how I can explain the first time. Towards the beginning of Lia's loosing her conscience, she was lashing out and then eventually people can become drunk with power. Which is why the Alcoholic reference was very fitting, tasting something so sweet like being able to do what you want and get away with it... Well can lead to startling revelations about a person.

I agree with After All with that Lia has many an anger issue to over come, I understand why she is the way she is with certain things- I just can't agree it's justifiable her actions, at least Sadako was reasonable.

http://www.jadedsanity.deviantart.com

6So is Lia a bad person? Empty Re: So is Lia a bad person? Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:06 am

Moony

Moony

Ah-hem, forget what I said - I think Lia is addicted to power.

http://www.jadedsanity.deviantart.com

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