CURRENT STORY DISCUSSION

Hm, I just NEED to add one more thing before I leave. It occured to me that Clandy might've been the first conscience indeed; at first she was just some Nod girl assigned by the king to watch over Sadako at the moment we meet them.
I started connecting it with the previous comments after I realized that Ellie's or the random girl's consciences were never there.
Unless I'm wrong and we simply haven't seen the other consciences.

But are the consciences that appear in Nod just human forms of the consciences we possess as humans? Like what we perceive as right and wrong and whether we feel guilty about what we do....? Since that was Mary's role in Fi's dream.

So that would mean that everyone in the Real World would have one too. Nod could be just a place where humans and consciences meet as physical forms. Wasn't it said earlier that consciences live in another dimension?

I hope I'm making sense
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me your theories because it's doing my head in!!

On the point of consciences living in another dimension... It could just be that the other girl and Ellie's consciences didn't appear in the dream because Sadako had dragged them through- if they had come to Nod of their own will, like Sadako does, then their consciences might have come through with them. As it was, Ellie wasn't even in control of her own thoughts: Sadako was. So it could be that their consciences just weren't there.

And on Himitsu being the first conscience... Himitsu was watching Sadako from before the King told her things (see here! Click me! She calls it "your realm", not "the" or "our" or anything home-like) And she said she was her secret friend, and that she knows all about Sadako. Just like Mary with the strip here! And Himitsu here!.

I don't have my own theory really, on who/what Himitsu is (other than Clandy <3) but I don't think she was the first conscience, or a template. Hm. Just another conscience, who appeared because her dreamer was easily corrupted ^-^

Tl;dr: Small quotes comics to disagree with other people and fails to present her own opinions. ^-^

Ok, here's another (probably wrong) theory;

We have consciences in this world, but they are integrated with us. But in the dreamworld, somewhere in the trans-dimensional shift, they are split from us. They become seperate beings (since we have to become like dreamworlders (noddites?) to be there, we can no longer have the conscience integrated). That's how they know and love their person so much. The people Sadako barged in and pulled into her dreamspace didn't have their consciences with them because they were already dreaming, separated from their consciences. Sadako just didn't pull the consciences through.

Lia reacted so badly to not having her conscience because of what had happened to her - she went insane. She probably would have anyway, but with her conscience it wouldn't have been a murdering spree, just catatonia or absolute despair or something similar.

The king tied up Clandy himself because he knew she'd try to stop Sadako from killing him*.

But what happens when a conscience is fired, like Fi's Mary was? Separated from their person when that person returns to our world - that person, with no conscience, starts doing terrible things that they'd never do with a conscience. Psychopaths? Maybe. Driving a car into a tree to kill yourself and get back at your father and stepmom? Probably.

I think it was Fi's happiness in DW that scared Sadako most - that's what made Sadako want to stay in the first place, she killed the ruler to do so. She may not realize just how manpulated she was back then!

I really don't know where this is going, but it seems kind of consistant. We'll see! (can't wait can't wait can't wait can't wait can't wait can't wait!!!!)


* The orange blood on Sadako's hands was really weird, btw. Made me think of jam. The king was a different kind of person? And what did she do, plunge her hands into his liver? She had no weapons, then bloody hands - is this a Lady MacBeth moment? I know, I think too much. I have work to avoid.

carl-E wrote:* The orange blood on Sadako's hands was really weird, btw. Made me think of jam. The king was a different kind of person? And what did she do, plunge her hands into his liver? She had no weapons, then bloody hands - is this a Lady MacBeth moment? I know, I think too much. I have work to avoid.

I think it has to do with the whole page being tinted orange. Skip back a page - while the King is alive, there's a night time sky and it's mostly cool colors (blue/purple; not like "I'm a cool dude" cool). Now he's dead, and there seems to be an explosion of warm colors (OMG orange hahaha), kind of like a sunset? (I kinda thought the coloring was because of the sun setting, till I went back a page and realized it had been night.) I'm unsure of the significance...probably just a stylistic choice to differentiate between the King being alive or dead.

smallandmighty wrote:On the point of consciences living in another dimension... It could just be that the other girl and Ellie's consciences didn't appear in the dream because Sadako had dragged them through- if they had come to Nod of their own will, like Sadako does, then their consciences might have come through with them. As it was, Ellie wasn't even in control of her own thoughts: Sadako was. So it could be that their consciences just weren't there.

And on Himitsu being the first conscience... Himitsu was watching Sadako from before the King told her things (see here! Click me! She calls it "your realm", not "the" or "our" or anything home-like) And she said she was her secret friend, and that she knows all about Sadako. Just like Mary with the strip here! And Himitsu here!.

I don't have my own theory really, on who/what Himitsu is (other than Clandy <3) but I don't think she was the first conscience, or a template. Hm. Just another conscience, who appeared because her dreamer was easily corrupted ^-^

Tl;dr: Small quotes comics to disagree with other people and fails to present her own opinions. ^-^

It's true that "Himitsu" is most likely not from that realm, but what if she's an angelic ("heavenly") being originally? That would be a very powerful way to neutralize a person's evil, I suppose.

I would like to point out that Sadako wasn't corrupted yet when we first see her.

carl-E wrote:Ok, here's another (probably wrong) theory;

We have consciences in this world, but they are integrated with us. But in the dreamworld, somewhere in the trans-dimensional shift, they are split from us. They become seperate beings (since we have to become like dreamworlders (noddites?) to be there, we can no longer have the conscience integrated). That's how they know and love their person so much. The people Sadako barged in and pulled into her dreamspace didn't have their consciences with them because they were already dreaming, separated from their consciences. Sadako just didn't pull the consciences through.
[...]

But what happens when a conscience is fired, like Fi's Mary was? Separated from their person when that person returns to our world - that person, with no conscience, starts doing terrible things that they'd never do with a conscience. Psychopaths? Maybe. Driving a car into a tree to kill yourself and get back at your father and stepmom? Probably.

Don did state that people living in the "Dream World" are not psychopaths because of their lack of "consciences", so I believe that getting separated from them wouldn't make you a psychopath automatically. I believe Lia got corrupted due to the magical effect of Nod. Once she died, she was shown to be a very powerful "dreamer", so maybe this is connected.

Let's see Fiona herself: did she automatically turn into a non-caring, selfish person? She was aggressive at her dream writers, but with a very good reason: she was being "exposed" to the whole dream world, just like many dreamers!

By the way, guys... let's see what the king said to "Himitsu".

King of Nod wrote:I'm afraid of what Nod will do to HER [Sadako]

We all saw that Nod itself is a very beautiful place, that seems to present little harm. So... what is that threatening in Nod? I believe it is what I decide to call The Eye of Nod itself! What if it has some sort of free will somehow? This way, it could manipulate not only the king, but Sadako as well, and being interdimentional, it probably knows what it happens to Sadako, and it can "plan" and manipulate what happens to her! This would also explain the King's "split" personality.

Absurd, you say? Not quite. We have at least one example in the literature: "The One Ring" (though the ring wasn't a real sentient being, it had a will of itself). If we talk about gaming here, we have "Majora's Mask", where Skullkid uses that Mask, only to be discarded by "it"!

Now... does that eye need to be a full sentient being? I don't think so. But it might have a will on its own, and that's probably why Sadako's personality partially changes.

If we to use the eye theory, then we also have an explanation to a gap in my theory: "What was corrupting Lia when she went insane?" The Eye of Nod itself, I would say! And perhaps this is why people need "consciences".

Megabyte wrote:If we to use the eye theory, then we also have an explanation to a gap in my theory: "What was corrupting Lia when she went insane?" The Eye of Nod itself, I would say! And perhaps this is why people need "consciences".

YOU GOT THE 1000TH COMMENT!

Anyway, aside from people getting the 1000th comment....

I think Sadako's intentions were good. If you find a good thing, you have to share it. Kind of like in medicine and science, if you discover something beneficial to society you are legally bound to share it with the rest of the world. So maybe Sadako went along with that. It wasn't a selfish move, she wanted everyone to experience Nod and do what they pleased in their dreams. I dunno about you guys but there are times when I really, really look forward to going to sleep because my dreams are an escape from reality and I can do what I want (most of the time). If my friends and I could all intergrate in the same dream that would be so cool!!!

Also dreaming is said to be messages or feelings from your SUBconscience. So maybe when you dream you have to shed your conscience in order for your subconscience to "speak out". I dunno. I keep forgetting that normal dreaming and being in Nod are two separate things because Sadako, Lia and Fi go to Nod every time they sleep!

Well, it was a nice plane of existence while it lasted. Pity.

cherrybomb wrote:Anyway, aside from people getting the 1000th comment....

I think Sadako's intentions were good. If you find a good thing, you have to share it. Kind of like in medicine and science, if you discover something beneficial to society you are legally bound to share it with the rest of the world. So maybe Sadako went along with that. It wasn't a selfish move, she wanted everyone to experience Nod and do what they pleased in their dreams. I dunno about you guys but there are times when I really, really look forward to going to sleep because my dreams are an escape from reality and I can do what I want (most of the time). If my friends and I could all intergrate in the same dream that would be so cool!!!
!

That, and also she probably wanted friends. She thought having people come to Nod will automatically make them love and admire her, basically she wanted attention. Well, she got it, I'm just not sure if it's exactly what she wanted, since she got down to the "making friends" thing all wrong...
Also, it's a bit strange how the conscience doesn't seem to realize Sadako is dead; or so it seems by how she encourages Sadako to go back. The consciences might not be as omniscient as it seems...

Damn. I just realised it's Friday.

maymay wrote:

cherrybomb wrote:Anyway, aside from people getting the 1000th comment....

I think Sadako's intentions were good. If you find a good thing, you have to share it. Kind of like in medicine and science, if you discover something beneficial to society you are legally bound to share it with the rest of the world. So maybe Sadako went along with that. It wasn't a selfish move, she wanted everyone to experience Nod and do what they pleased in their dreams. I dunno about you guys but there are times when I really, really look forward to going to sleep because my dreams are an escape from reality and I can do what I want (most of the time). If my friends and I could all intergrate in the same dream that would be so cool!!!
!

That, and also she probably wanted friends. She thought having people come to Nod will automatically make them love and admire her, basically she wanted attention. Well, she got it, I'm just not sure if it's exactly what she wanted, since she got down to the "making friends" thing all wrong...
Also, it's a bit strange how the conscience doesn't seem to realize Sadako is dead; or so it seems by how she encourages Sadako to go back. The consciences might not be as omniscient as it seems...

Well, I might be wrong because I know nothing about her dress, but maybe Sadako's not quite dead yet and if she goes back now she'll properly go to the afterlife?

Also yes, damn it being Friday D;

LOOL! I thought Sadako was going to do something HORRIBLE to people like torturing their dreams and stuff, i expected the worst from thursdays page. She invited people to NOD Oh no!
At least its a bit better than what i had in mind

cherrybomb wrote:

Megabyte wrote:If we to use the eye theory, then we also have an explanation to a gap in my theory: "What was corrupting Lia when she went insane?" The Eye of Nod itself, I would say! And perhaps this is why people need "consciences".

YOU GOT THE 1000TH COMMENT!

I didn't even notice this forum has a post counter!

So, what do I win?

maymay wrote:
That, and also she probably wanted friends. She thought having people come to Nod will automatically make them love and admire her, basically she wanted attention. Well, she got it, I'm just not sure if it's exactly what she wanted, since she got down to the "making friends" thing all wrong...
Also, it's a bit strange how the conscience doesn't seem to realize Sadako is dead; or so it seems by how she encourages Sadako to go back. The consciences might not be as omniscient as it seems...

Well in Sadako's defense: Who doesn't want friends? But I agree she is getting a little over-excited. You know the old saying - with great power comes great responsibility and I guess Sadako just isn't doing the responsibility part very well >.<

Maybe Himitsu isn't aware that Sadako in RW is dead because she's actually alive??

cherrybomb wrote:Anyway, aside from people getting the 1000th comment....
Also, it's a bit strange how the conscience doesn't seem to realize Sadako is dead; or so it seems by how she encourages Sadako to go back. The consciences might not be as omniscient as it seems...

Isn't it strange, considering said consciences are supposed to be part of themselves? You could argue that Sadako lost hers when she rose to power, so she ("Himitsu") doesn't know. However, if "Himitsu" was her true conscience she was supposed to know what happened to Sadako until the very moment S"adako passed out and up to before she got the eye, even if Himitsu" was tied.

Case in point: didn't Lia's conscience instantly recognize her even after she became "The Terrible Mara"? Sure they were put in the same cell, but I'm not sure she would know of the terrible plot to follow; she just saw Lia and recognized her, it seems.

maymay wrote:<snip>
Also, it's a bit strange how the conscience doesn't seem to realize Sadako is dead; or so it seems by how she encourages Sadako to go back. The consciences might not be as omniscient as it seems...

The king may have tied Clandy/Conscience up before Sadako's last trip "home" and the confrontation with Elli. So she wasn't there to a) stop her from doing something ill advised and b) know what happened afterwards.

I'm still getting the willies from those glass shards...

cherrybomb wrote:
...Also dreaming is said to be messages or feelings from your SUBconscience. ...

Sorry, grammar nazi time (my father was an English major, and my mother... smelled like elderberries?).

It's subconscious, not subconscience. The difference is subtle, but the root words have a different meaning. Science is knowledge, conscience is knowledge of how we fit in with others (literally, "with-knowledge"). So your conscience tells you how to behave around others, right from wrong, etc.

To be conscious is to be aware; the subconscious is that part of our mentality and behaviour that we are not aware of. Often, the conscience is subconscious!

Subconscience isn't a word...

Maybe it should be - like the conscience's little helpers?

Up until Sadako people from the RW weren't coming into Nod -- so there was no need for consciences to be paired up with them. In the background on this page we can already see two guys in a fist fight :-/ so maybe besides creating the whole dream works production (omg, that made me lol) she also implemented the conscience pairing to keep her new "friends" in line in Nod.

sheisakeeper wrote:Up until Sadako people from the RW weren't coming into Nod -- so there was no need for consciences to be paired up with them. In the background on this page we can already see two guys in a fist fight :-/ so maybe besides creating the whole dream works production (omg, that made me lol) she also implemented the conscience pairing to keep her new "friends" in line in Nod.

I think some people could get into Nod, but most were going to other dreamplaces. Sadako just opened a floodgate into a particular dream place, then built up a whole industry around it.

I'm still up in the air about consciences - are they something we come with, or are they noddites? I tend to thing they pre-date Sadako, that the conscience becomes a material being on Nod, able tp look after their person in a more tangible way. I think they're not used to that, though; and like Clandy*, tend to watch from the sidelines. The king was just warning Clandy to be especially careful, probably because of his experiances.

* [sigh] OK, Himitsu. But I really think it's Clandy, so that's what I'm calling her.

Well, this update teaches us all an important lesson.

In awkward social situations, eye beams are always acceptable.

Megan, you are so awesomeamazingawesome.